 Thread: TITO- Diktator naroda |
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Umro 1980 i ostavio preko 20 mld dolara duga , drzava bankrotirala a dug prema MMf se racunao 2017 sa preko 150 mld dolara . Uspjesan neki diktator , pravo nas unistio ali se moglo spavati na klupama i ici heftu u odmaraliste na moru  a nakon ljeta dizi kredit za skolovanje djeci .
New York Times, August 1999.
As much as a billion dollars has disappeared from public funds or been stolen from international aid projects through fraud carried out by the Muslim, Croatian and Serbian nationalist leaders who keep Bosnia rigidly partitioned into three ethnic enclaves, according to an exhaustive investigation by an American-led antifraud unit.
The antifraud unit, set up by the Office of the High Representative, the international agency responsible for carrying out the civilian aspects of the Dayton peace agreement, has exposed so much corruption that relief agencies and embassies are reluctant to publicize the thefts for fear of frightening away international donors.
The report names several officials linked to the governing nationalist parties that it says profited from the fraud. Even though the Office of the High Representative has dismissed 15 officials or prevented them from holding office, most retain authority.
In one incident cited in the report, 10 foreign embassies and international aid agencies lost more than $20 million deposited in a Bosnian bank, but only the Swiss Embassy has publicly acknowledged its losses.
The antifraud unit, which requires special security measures and does not make public who is working for the organization in Bosnia, is now investigating 220 cases of fraud and corruption. It documents the current cases in a 4,000-page report that has not been released to the public. Its contents were made available to The New York Times.
Continue reading the main story
Organizations as diverse at the Office of the High Representative, the United Nations and the United States Agency for International Development, all dedicated to rebuilding the country, have lost tens of millions of dollars, the report says.
The widespread corruption is viewed by many here as a severe blow in the long, frustrating struggle to build a democratic Bosnia, a country that has received $5.1 billion in international aid since the end of the war in 1995. The corruption has also played a pivotal role in driving away foreign investment, seen as the only way to free Bosnia from dependence on foreign assistance.
The missing funds were supposed to have been used to rebuild Bosnia's roads, buildings and schools, as well as to provide municipal services in towns throughout Bosnia.
Alija Izetbegovic, the Bosnian President, along with other senior nationalist leaders, has dismissed the allegations of official corruption made by the international investigators. While conceding that corruption takes place, the President disputes the scale of the charges, denying that as much as a billion dollars has been misappropriated as stated in the long and detailed report.
Mr. Izetbegovic has repeatedly denied the charges, most recently in a local press interview. ''It would be nonsense to claim that there is no corruption, or that it is irrelevant, in a country that has just come out of the war,'' he said, adding that Bosnia is a country ''which does not have established borders, where joint institutions are still not functioning, and which has at least two armies and two police forces.''
The Dayton agreement, which was signed by Muslim, Croatian and Serbian warring factions in 1995, called for the creation of a single state and the return of two million refugees and displaced people to their homes. But Bosnia remains partitioned into three antagonistic ethnic enclaves.
Serb-held Bosnia continues to operate as a separate entity. The internationally created Muslim-Croat Federation has no authority and has been unable to raise revenues. The two million refugees and displaced people have not gone back to their homes. And the Office of the High Representative, the chief civilian international agency in Bosnia, has been reduced to promising money and aid projects to towns and cities that say they will allow some refugees to return, promises that are usually never kept.
''Dayton stopped the violence, but it did not end the war,'' said Jacques P. Klein, the chief United Nations representative here, ''and the war is still being fought bureaucratically through obfuscation, delay and avoidance by a group of leaders who do not want to lose power. Bosnia and Herzegovina is a patient on life support assistance -- political, military and economic.''
International donors say the endemic fraud is making it harder to justify continued aid levels. Without the huge infusions of money, it is unlikely that the Muslim, Croatian and Serbian enclaves will be able to continue to pay pensions and salaries and reconstruct the country. The Sarajevo Government, for instance, has asked the World Bank for loans to make pension payments.
''Time is running out,'' said James Lyon, director of the Crisis Group, an independent research organization. ''The international community has no enforcement mechanism. The international administrators beg, plead, cajole and in some case engage in what looks like bribery, promising cities infrastructure projects if they allow some refugees to return. This tactic might work if we continue the present aid levels, about a billion dollars a year, over the next 20 years. But as aid declines, what will make these people even promise to comply?''
Tuzla, a Muslim city, is one case study of widespread corruption that infects many local governments, the report says. The investigators' report charges that $200 million was missing from this year's budget, in addition to $300 million missing over the last two years.
Tuzla's schools were painted four times last year alone by the city government, although they were rebuilt and painted by international aid organizations as well. Tuzla officials paid two or three times the normal price for such work and sold many of the cans of paint on the local market, the auditors found. Many of the schools, meanwhile, still lack heat.
In the town of Sanski Most, heavily damaged during the war, municipal funds are being used to build a horse racing track, much to the consternation of aid agencies, the report said.
The report charges the town's Mayor, Mehmed Alagic, with 358 counts of corruption. The charges include the theft of $450,000 in relief aid from Saudi Arabia. That money was supposed to be used to provide feed and farm equipment, but the report alleges that the Mayor gave the money instead to his brother to start a bank. The Mayor has denied the charges and accused the Office of the High Representative of mounting a campaign against him.
The most sensitive case under investigation by the antifraud unit concerns the Bosnia and Herzegovina Bank, or BiH, in Sarajevo. The bank took in tens of millions of dollars from international agencies and 10 foreign embassies. The money, the investigators say, was lent to fictional businesses or given as personal loans to friends by the two owners.
The bank has now collapsed. The collapse underscores a near-total failure to establish a viable banking industry. Of the some 50 banks in Bosnia, Western diplomats say, only 6 are solvent.
The Agency for International Development, which has not made its losses public, had at least $4 million in the BiH bank, according to Western diplomats. At least half of the $20 million lost by international organizations deposited in the bank was to have been used for reconstruction projects, the investigators said.
''Our fear is that once the extent of the theft is known, international donors will get disgusted and walk away,'' said an official at the Office of the High Representative, who asked not to be identified.
AID has also filed suit in Bosnian courts against 19 Bosnian companies, which have failed to repay loans worth more than $10 million. The loans, ranging from $100,000 to $1 million, are part of a $278 million revolving credit established in 1996 by AID to help kick-start the economy. The agency, unable to collect $1 million in loans from Hidrogradnja, one of Bosnia's largest companies, is trying to seize its assets.
The rampant corruption has discouraged foreign investment. Most foreign companies, including McDonald's, have refused to set up operations after demands by officials to pay bribes and do business exclusively with local party officials. Other companies -- like the Italian construction company Aluveneto and Gluck Norm, Germany's largest maker of door and window frames -- have pulled out with heavy losses, complaining of interference from the state, an inability to collect debts and demands by officials for kickbacks and bribes to stay in business.
Volkswagen is also considering pulling out of Bosnia, according to European diplomats. Volkswagen officials would not comment. The German Government pushed hard to get the company to reopen its heavily damaged plant in the Sarajevo suburb of Vogosca. Volkswagen did so on condition that the Bosnian Government buy official cars from the plant. Not only has the Government reneged on its promise, forcing Volkswagen to go to court, but the state company in partnership has also refused to pay the $1 million it promised to invest.
The money-losing Volkswagen plant does only final assembly on car bodies shipped from the Skoda auto works in the Czech Republic. Sixty workers assemble about six cars a day from the kits. Few sell, in part because of the thousands of stolen cars brought into the country from Europe by local gangsters.
The used car market in Stolac, which convenes every Sunday in the Croat-controlled part of Bosnia, has one of the largest collections of stolen vehicles in Europe, according to the international police.
On one recent Sunday, some 400 cars, most with forged registration papers and German, Swiss and Italian license plates, were being sold for large wads of German marks. The gangs that bring the cars into Bosnia oversee the sales.
The Office of the High Representative has outlawed the market. It pressed in January to have the market's organizer, Jozo Peric, arrested. But the local Croatian court released him a few days later and dismissed the charges. Now Mr. Peric is in hiding. When federal tax officials showed up last year to try carry out an audit, they were beaten so badly that they were hospitalized.
Officials of the Office of the High Representative and Western diplomats say one of the wealthiest and most powerful men in Bosnia is Bakir Izetbegovic, the son of President Izetbegovic. He controls The City Development Institute, in charge of determining the occupancy rights of 80,000 publicly owned apartments in Sarajevo. The apartments, many of which belonged to Serbs or Croats before the war, have been given to members of the governing Muslim-led Social Democratic Party. Others who want occupancy rights must pay Mr. Izetbegovic $2,000, said several Bosnians who have paid the fee.
Mr. Izetbegovic owns 15 percent of Bosnia Air, the state airline, and takes a cut of the extortion money paid out by local shopkeepers to Sarajevo gangsters, the diplomats said. Mr. Izetbegovic has consistently denied any involvement in such activities.
When foreign aid agencies or even the Office of the High Representative try to turn to Bosnian courts for redress, they run up against an overwhelmed and corrupt system.
The Agency for International Development is moving against several large state-owned companies. But creditors are rarely able to collect. The Tuzla courts, for instance, have a backlog of more than 30,000 cases of organized and violent crime. There were 1,050 convictions last year, and in most of the cases, those convicted were released on parole.
Even when laws are passed to try to contain the fraud, politicians have blocked or ignored them. For instance, last year the Bosnian Assembly passed a law to allow the Government to tax the oil and gas trucked in from Croatia. The revenue was expected to be in the hundreds of millions of dollars. But when the law appeared in the official gazette, the articles stipulating the taxation were inexplicably missing. The Croatian mafia that brings in the oil and gas continues to pay no taxes. Although the case is in a Sarajevo court, diplomats say the judges, fearing retribution, are afraid to try it.
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| Thread: TITO- Diktator naroda |
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Umro 1980 i ostavio preko 20 mld dolara duga , drzava bankrotirala a dug prema MMf se racunao 2017 sa preko 150 mld dolara . Uspjesan neki diktator , pravo nas unistio ali se moglo spavati na klupama i ici heftu u odmaraliste na moru a nakon ljeta dizi kredit za skolovanje djeci .
Sema, mogao bi biti malo odmjereniji u tvojim 'analizama'.
Naime, da njegova ekselencija Erdogan veceras opruzi papke, ostavio bi Tursku u dugu od oko 450 milijardi dolara. Prije nego sto ovo odbacis kao neku cionisticko-masonsku zavjeru, dozvoli slijedece: taj dug iznosi oko 60% ukupnog bruto domaceg proizvoda Turske (vrijednost finalnih dobara i usluga proizvedenih u zemlji tokom dane godine, izrazeno u novÄanim jedinicama).
Ako usporedimo ovaj omjer sa korespondirajucem omjeru jugoslovenskog vanjskog duga i bruto domaceg proizvoda iz 1980. godine, dobicemo slijedece:
18bn / 120bn x 100% = 15%
Rijecima, za bolje razumijevanje - spoljni dug Jugoslavije (pbuh) je tada iznosio oko 15% njenog bruto domaceg proizvoda. I pitas li se gdje je taj novac isao? Ko je za svega tri godine izgradio tvoje drago Alipasino, gdje danas zivi 60000 ljudi? Da ne spominjem Centar 2, Aveniju, Rudnik, DUM, Kalemovu i Husinske bune, nebodere u Podhumu, Zalik, Bejrut, Staro Velezovo, Bijeli Brijeg... u jedan od navedenih si se i ti skotrljao sa jednog od okolnih brda sedamdeset i neke, stoga budi iskren, castan i duboko zahvalan. Da ne spominjem poslovne uspjehe firmi koje, da se nabroje, ne bi stale na jednu stranicu foruma. Samo je sarajevski Energoinvest imao godisnji prihod od oko 4 milijarde dolara krajem osamdesetih. Tito, Jugoslavija i 'onaj' sistem su imali mnoge mane, barem iz ove perspektive, ali je jedna stvar neosporiva - od primitivne, krezube bagre su napravili ljude sa dostojanstvom i drzavom za ponositi se, uprkos trudu petokolonasa, poltrona, kvislinga i inih domacih izdajnika.
Da ne zaboravim: koristeci tvoju logiku, ovo Tita cini cetiri puta uspjesnijim diktatorom od Erdogana.
Slazes li se?
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| Thread: TITO- Diktator naroda |
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'Based on the number of attending politicians and state delegations, it is regarded as the largest state funeral in history. They included four kings, 31 presidents, six princes, 22 prime ministers, and 47 ministers of foreign affairs, from both sides of the Iron Curtain. In total 128 countries out of the 154 UN members at the time were represented.'
'(In 1995) turbulent times still do not allow for a truly historical assessment of his stature and achievements, but the appraisal which the world showed those days in May 1980, confirms that small nations and small states may produce world giants.'
Dictator? Possibly.
Giant? Absofuckinglutely.
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| Thread: Napokon da laz bude ono sto jeste, lazi i glupost |
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Nije nimalo lako zagovarati evoluciju a ona te zaobidze
Konta da je argumentirano sorgo nebeskog pa se sad obrusio na vorumskog stvoritelja
Boza care ovo treba uokvirit i to u Glibe Barise birvaktile
Uokvirite i ovih par definicija i bacite pogled na njih svaki put kad dobijete nagon da polemisete o necemu u sto bas i niste upuceni:
'Dunning-Krugerov efekt je sklonost prema kojoj ljudi ispodprosjeÄne inteligencije smatraju da su inteligentniji nego Å¡to to jesu u stvarnosti i istodobno podcjenjuju inteligenciju ljudi koji im stoje nasuprot.'
' je sklonost ka traženju, interpretiranju, favoriziranju i prizivanju informacija koje potvrÄ‘uju neÄija uvjerenja ili hipoteze. To je oblik kognitivne sklonosti i sustavne pogreÅ¡ke induktivnog zakljuÄivanja. Ljudi iskazuju ovu sklonost kada prikupljaju ili prikazuju informacije na selektivan naÄin ili kada ih interpretiraju na neobjektivan naÄin. UÄinak je jaÄi kod pitanja koja su nabijena emocijama, te kod duboko usaÄ‘enih vjerovanja. Ljudi takoÄ‘er imaju sklonost prikazivanja nejasnih dokaza u smislu potvrde vlastite pozicije.'
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| Thread: Napokon da laz bude ono sto jeste, lazi i glupost |
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Ne znam da je ikad iko uspio bÃti licemjeran u recenici u kojoj opisuje licemjerje. Ne moze sa svemircem niko. Dzaba se trudimo.
NB 'Licemjerje, dvoliÄnost ili hipokrizija je ljudska osobina u kojem pojedine osobe ili skupine navode da se drže pojedinih vjerovanja, standarda, kvaliteta, vrlina, ponaÅ¡anja, vrijednosti ili nekih drugih karakteristika, a u stvari njih sustavno krÅ¡e.'
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| Thread: Napokon da laz bude ono sto jeste, lazi i glupost |
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Iz postovanja prema jedinom Stvoritelju pisi veliko A Allah , B Bog , K Kuran i Muhammed sa dva m jer sa jednim m nije to to .
Ne mozes obozavati Titu i vjerovati u Allaha .Ne ide , to je brate licemjerstvo a kada vjerujes u i citas Kuran procitaj sta je Allah rekao o licemjerima Procitaj knjigu Strahote Sudnjeg dana
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| Thread: Napokon da laz bude ono sto jeste, lazi i glupost |
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apsolutno ne insistiram da neko drugi prihvati moj stav. nije to poenta. pricamo ...
cakstavise to bi po islamu bio grijeh, primoravati nekoga na religiju.
ovo za zivotinje - nauka zna da zivotinje nemaju koncept svijesti. davno ispitano i dokazano.
radili su puno testova na zivotinjama i tu se svi slazu - zivotinje nemaju koncept svijesti.
kad zivotinja vidi sebe u ogledalu ona nema pojma koga vidi. misli da je druga zivotinja.
to sto se zajedno hrane i druze ne znaci da imaju svijest.
samo par zivotinja ima kakav-takav koncept svijesti: slon, delfin, vrana i hobotnica. zivotinje nisu svjesne sebe. dokazano.
ja se trudim da NE spominjem naucno i vjersko u istoj recenici
(zato sam ti prethodo reko da ne mogu da ti odgovorim na pitanje jer upilce religiju)
ako mi se nekad omaklo, ti je bila djela.
Opet citas/citiras pogresnu nauku. Rekoh ti - samo priznate i respektabilne publikacije Poput ove:
The Cambridge Declaration on Consciousness
On this day of July 7, 2012, a prominent international group of cognitive neuroscientists,
neuropharmacologists, neurophysiologists, neuroanatomists and computational neuroscientists
gathered at The University of Cambridge to reassess the neurobiological substrates of conscious
experience and related behaviors in human and non-human animals. While comparative research on
this topic is naturally hampered by the inability of non-human animals, and often humans, to clearly
and readily communicate about their internal states, the following observations can be stated
Birds appear to offer, in their behavior, neurophysiology, and neuroanatomy a striking case of
parallel evolution of consciousness. Evidence of near human-like levels of consciousness has
been most dramatically observed in African grey parrots. Mammalian and avian emotional
networks and cognitive microcircuitries appear to be far more homologous than previously
thought. Moreover, certain species of birds have been found to exhibit neural sleep patterns
similar to those of mammals, including REM sleep and, as was demonstrated in zebra finches,
neurophysiological patterns, previously thought to require a mammalian neocortex. Magpies in
particular have been shown to exhibit striking similarities to humans, great apes, dolphins, and
elephants in studies of mirror self-recognition.
We declare the following: “The absence of a neocortex does not appear to preclude an organism from
experiencing affective states. Convergent evidence indicates that non-human animals have the
neuroanatomical, neurochemical, and neurophysiological substrates of conscious states along with
the capacity to exhibit intentional behaviors. Consequently, the weight of evidence indicates that
humans are not unique in possessing the neurological substrates that generate consciousness. Nonhuman animals, including all mammals and birds, and many other creatures, including octopuses, also
possess these neurological substrates.â€
* The Cambridge Declaration on Consciousness was written by Philip Low and edited by Jaak Panksepp, Diana Reiss, David Edelman, Bruno Van Swinderen, Philip Low and Christof Koch. The Declaration was publicly proclaimed in Cambridge, UK, on July 7, 2012, at the Francis Crick Memorial Conference on Consciousness in Human and non-Human Animals, at Churchill College, University of Cambridge, by Low, Edelman and Koch.
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| Thread: Napokon da laz bude ono sto jeste, lazi i glupost |
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Ti sve nekako okolo kole. De bola odgovori ovo o kravama i Pchelama , kako su oni dar boziji ljuckom rodu. To shto pchela ima izvidjache, radnike, vojnike je sasvim druga tema. To imaju i mravi. Tvojom logikom su i mravi sluge ljuckom rodu ,dizajnirane od dizajnera. A i sam znash koliko vrsta mrava direktno unishtava ono shto chovjek stvori. Pusti tu praznu prichu. Kako su krave dizajnirane da chovjeku daju mlijeko? Kako su pchele dizajnirane svevishnjim da daju med i ostale produkte ljuckom rodu? To su bola jednostavna i obichna pitanja. Odgovori ih ,for "god" sake. Problem je shto ti taj odgovor nemash. Isto si jegulja koja sklizne od odgovora. Neshto slichno kao bivshi chlan ovoga foruma kojeg si spomenuo u replici bridge kipperu. Dodushe nije da i ja nisam pomislio da je BK u stvari Stari Gmaz. Mozda grijeshimo obadvojca.
Grijesite obadvojica. Mada ovo smatram komplimentom. SG je elokventan i nacitan kao malo ko na forumu. Mozete se neslagati s njim, i ja sam u vise navrata, ali mu se neke stvari ne mogu osporiti. Slazem se da je znao pretjerati i snosi djelomicnu krivicu za rasipanje foruma, ali ja sam ga uzivao citati, sve dok je to bilo u granicama pristojnog. I ako cemo iskreno, meni fali.
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| Thread: Napokon da laz bude ono sto jeste, lazi i glupost |
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Nije nimalo lako zagovarati evoluciju a ona te zaobidze
U potpunosti se slazem. Upravo zbog toga pojedinci zagovaraju kreaciju. Znatno lakse i, usudjujem se reci, prihvatljivije na arbitrarnim forumima poput ovog.
nisi ti skonto bozu jarane. TI si taj koji zagovara evoluciju.
Sancta Simplicitas...
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| Thread: Napokon da laz bude ono sto jeste, lazi i glupost |
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nije mi drago da vidim clanove da odlaze sa foruma, ali odrasli smo ljudi i svako zna sta mu je radit'
ja sam ovdje neutralan i koliko god se to tebi ne svidjalo meni su clanovi isti, bez obzira na moje licne preference.
ponavljam ja moram da budem neutralan,
nije moje da psiho-analiziram clanove i ulazim u razloge ko je koga navuko, ko je koga izbacio iz takta ... .... nije to moj poso. moj je poso da budem neutralan, da budem profesionalac i ja to i jesam. ja nisam nimalo selektivan i dosljedan sam.
ako je covjek neutralan valjda je i objektivan, jer nije subjektivan.
neutralan, ne priklanja se nijednoj strani.
ali vidi ovo - ja nisam nikome nikada naklonjen jer nemam taj luksuz. rekoh se trudim da budem potpuno neutralan/objektivan jer smatram da administrator foruma mora tako da se postavi. clanovi mogu biti pristrasni ali administrator foruma ne moze. na sta bi to onda licilo?
mi(tim) nismo nicije oruzje i ne zelimo da se mijesamo u licne razmirice osim ako imaju veze sa pravilnikom. bez nas.
mozes se ti smjati kolko hoces, ja tebi opet zelim srecu i prosperitet.
da tebi ne dodje nesto u rodu onaj stari grad? on je znao ovako satima da pretrazuje forum da bi mene citiro. tvoja je namjera da me diskreditujes i navodis primjere vezane za moju neutralnost. uz to jos i kazes da se ponasam svojevoljno. ali sve to ti kazes pasivno agresivno, nekako zenski.
ovi citati se odnose na moj stav o mojoj neutralnosti kao administratora.kakve veze ima moje administrairanje sa mojim misljenjem o religiji i evoliciji?
moram biti neutralan kad je rijec o religiji? smijesno. ja samo moram biti neutralan kad je administriranje u pitanju. imam pravo na misljenje o temem ko i svaki drugi clan. pokusavas da upakujes istinu u laz i da sve skupa prodas kao istinu. stare oprobane metode.
e bas ti fala sto si sve ove moje citate skupio na jednom mjestu. moze mi valjati nekad. 
Zahvali se Taxiju:
Ja predla�em tanu.Navest �u nekoliko primjera ...za�to ba� njega!?
�ovjek do�e svakih dvajes-dvajes pet dan i odmah zna u kojem grmu le�i zec,ko je kriv a ko nije(naravno,moderator je uvijek u pravu).Pa jo� i realan,neutralan,voli se �aliti,alkohol mrzi kao i narkotike..... sve u svemu,mister
nije mi drago da vidim clanove da odlaze sa foruma, ali odrasli smo ljudi i svako zna sta mu je radit'
.
ja sam ovdje neutralan i koliko god se to tebi ne svidjalo meni su clanovi isti, bez obzira na moje licne preference.
ponavljam ja moram da budem neutralan,
nije moje da psiho-analiziram clanove i ulazim u razloge ko je koga navuko, ko je koga izbacio iz takta ... .... nije to moj poso. moj je poso da budem neutralan, da budem profesionalac i ja to i jesam. ja nisam nimalo selektivan i dosljedan sam.
ako je covjek neutralan valjda je i objektivan, jer nije subjektivan.
neutralan, ne priklanja se nijednoj strani.
ali vidi ovo - ja nisam nikome nikada naklonjen jer nemam taj luksuz. rekoh se trudim da budem potpuno neutralan/objektivan jer smatram da administrator foruma mora tako da se postavi. clanovi mogu biti pristrasni ali administrator foruma ne moze. na sta bi to onda licilo?
mi(tim) nismo nicije oruzje i ne zelimo da se mijesamo u licne razmirice osim ako imaju veze sa pravilnikom. bez nas.
mozes se ti smjati kolko hoces, ja tebi opet zelim srecu i prosperitet.
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| Thread: Napokon da laz bude ono sto jeste, lazi i glupost |
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Nije nimalo lako zagovarati evoluciju a ona te zaobidze
U potpunosti se slazem. Upravo zbog toga pojedinci zagovaraju kreaciju. Znatno lakse i, usudjujem se reci, prihvatljivije na arbitrarnim forumima poput ovog.
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| Thread: Napokon da laz bude ono sto jeste, lazi i glupost |
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nije mi drago da vidim clanove da odlaze sa foruma, ali odrasli smo ljudi i svako zna sta mu je radit'
ja sam ovdje neutralan i koliko god se to tebi ne svidjalo meni su clanovi isti, bez obzira na moje licne preference.
ponavljam ja moram da budem neutralan,
nije moje da psiho-analiziram clanove i ulazim u razloge ko je koga navuko, ko je koga izbacio iz takta ... .... nije to moj poso. moj je poso da budem neutralan, da budem profesionalac i ja to i jesam. ja nisam nimalo selektivan i dosljedan sam.
ako je covjek neutralan valjda je i objektivan, jer nije subjektivan.
neutralan, ne priklanja se nijednoj strani.
ali vidi ovo - ja nisam nikome nikada naklonjen jer nemam taj luksuz. rekoh se trudim da budem potpuno neutralan/objektivan jer smatram da administrator foruma mora tako da se postavi. clanovi mogu biti pristrasni ali administrator foruma ne moze. na sta bi to onda licilo?
mi(tim) nismo nicije oruzje i ne zelimo da se mijesamo u licne razmirice osim ako imaju veze sa pravilnikom. bez nas.
mozes se ti smjati kolko hoces, ja tebi opet zelim srecu i prosperitet.
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| Thread: Napokon da laz bude ono sto jeste, lazi i glupost |
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OU EM DZI, cime sam ovo zasluzio?
Ono 'supak' shvatam, ali streber? Ja, ponosni i neprikosnoveni rekorder u broju neopravdanih izostanaka u istoriji gradjevinske skole?
Jedini broj koji dolazi blizu broja tih izostanaka je broj zora docekanih u Indexu u drustvu Pere Topica, Mehe Repca, Muche sankera iz Lenona i rah. profesora Zuljevica, sve uz umilne zvuke i jos umilniju viziju Sneki Babic za portabla na vrh sanka? I nakon tih seansi isao na nastavu.
Ja, koji je izbacen iz DVIJE srednje skole i koji je u ratu 'na crno' sredio diplomu keramicara, parketara i teracera? Ja streber?
Ocekujem zurnu i iskrenu ispriku.
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| Thread: Napokon da laz bude ono sto jeste, lazi i glupost |
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Indoktriniranje naucnim cinjenicama se zove obrazovanje. Ne bi bilo zgoreg da si ga uslisis malo.
sta to treba da znaci?
ti bi kobiva meni nesto reko ali nemas muda direktno, te si izabro passive-aggressive varijantu. pravo supacki.
Kad vec znanje crpis iz videa, haj'mo onda ovako:
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| Thread: Napokon da laz bude ono sto jeste, lazi i glupost |
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Tana, nisam dovoljno arogantan da se pretvaram da imam odgovor na tvoje pitanje. Nema ga ni nauka, ali se prirodni fenomeni uredno istrazuju i svakodnevno dolazimo do novih, naukom potvrdjenih i univerzalno prihvacenih, saznanja. Doci ce i pcele na red. Obruc oko 'god did it!' se suzava.
Da budem iskren: koristis jako los primjer da podkrijepis svoje tvrdnje, cak i ako zanemarimo tvoj nimalo naucni pristup. Zar nije postojao 'inteligentniji' nacin da ova pcela koja je 'nasla logu' dohaberi drugim pcelama gdje je ta loga? Konsekventno, zar mislis da je ijedan aspekt prirode perfektno, inteligentno, nenadjebivo dizajniran? Ili je sve sto vidis u stvari posljedica prilagodjavanja sredini i okolisu koji se stalno mijenja vec nekoliko milijardi godina. Jesi li uopste svjestan prostora i vremena u kojem postojimo. Makso je apsolutno u pravu - totalno smo mali i nebitni kad se uzme u obzir stvarna slika - milijarde galaksija, u svakoj milijarde zvjezdanih sistema, u njima mnostvo planeta i na jednoj od tih planeta mi, ljudi, homo sapiens, pripadnici podplemena homonina, zajedno sa cimpanzima, u sklopu porodice hominidae, sa gorilama i orangutanima. Oh, da, Makso grijesi (ili mudro pomijera diskusiju u tom pravcu) kad kaze da smo 'mozda' napredniji majmuni.
Another fun (universaly accepted scientific) fact: Naravno da jesmo. Upravo to: napredna vrsta majmuna (ape, not monkey, bitna razlika).
Stoga, da ne gubimo vrijeme u bespredmetnoj raspravi - mozemo diskutovati do mile volje, ali sa filozofskog stanovista. Ako se mislis pozivati na prirodne nauke, zamolio bih te da postujes temeljne naucne postulate i da svoje tvrdnje podkrijepis referencama i citatima iz priznatih, renomiranih i relevantnih naucnih radova i knjiga. Tvoje misljenje oblikovano ociglednom visegodisnjom kreacionistickom indoktrinacijom rezervisi za teme u kojima se nauka ne spominje.
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| Thread: Napokon da laz bude ono sto jeste, lazi i glupost |
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Makso, nema izmedju - ili vjerujes, ili ne. Ti si agnostik-ateist. Ne tvrdis da bog ne postoji, znaci da nisi siguran. Ali isto tako ne vjerujes ni da postoji, barem ne onaj opisan u vjerskim knjigama Abrahamskih religija. I ovo je ujedno najiskrenije stanoviste. Na ovom forumu niko ne tvrdi da boga nema, niti bogovo postojanje eksplicitno iskljucuje. Nauka je napredovala i objasnila mnoge fenomene pripisane bogu u doba pisanja svetih knjiga. Ali smatram da nikada nece moci sa sigurnoscu iskljuciti postojanje neke 'vise inteligencije'. Isto tako smatram da je covjecanstvo (barem moderni dio) prevazislo religiju i potrebu za istom. Imamo sekularne zakone i sekularnim zakonima zagarantovana ljudska prava, tako da je religija svedena na status folklora u modernom drustvu. Niko ti ne brani da vjerujes, niti te tjera na to. S obzirom na nasu skoru istoriju, ne cudi me da su mnogi 'nasli' boga. Oni, u stvari, traze nadu, spokoj, utjehu. I ja bih volio vjerovati, misliti da mi pokojni otac igra lopte 'na male' gore negdje sa Pindom Zelenikom i Pidorom Sogorovicem, ali ne ide. Razum uvijek prevlada. A znam da bi bilo lakse tako. Mnogo lakse nego ova surova realnost. Tako da se vjernicima ne cudim. Cak im i zavidim.
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